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Subject: State of the Dead
Replies: 45 Views: 2094
soldier2 28.10.09 - 10:07pm
Soldier2 vs N1ck
n1ck I want to talk to you about the state of the dead.What are we made of? What happens when you die? Do we have immortality,an attribute of God? Was the devil right when he told Eve,'YOU SHALL NOT SURELY DIE'? *
soldier2 28.10.09 - 10:12pm
So n1ck,my first question to you is,How was Adam created? *
n1ck 30.10.09 - 03:30am
I accept the debate. But in order to debate, you have to have a point of disagreement. So what is the title of the debate? What are you wanting to establish with this debate? *
soldier2 30.10.09 - 07:12pm
I want to establish the biblical fact of what happens when we die.When we die,we dont go to heaven or hell,but we remain in the grave till the resurrection.And I also want to establish the fact that we DO NOT have an immortal soul. *
n1ck 31.10.09 - 04:41am
Ok. So if I understand your opening statement correctly, you believe that 1) we stay in the grave in until Judgement Day, and 2) our souls are not immortal, meaning those who go to hell will be utterely destroyed and cease to be. And you want to debate these points. Correct me if any of this is wrong or not what you want to say. (we must be clear in our statements) *
n1ck 31.10.09 - 04:48am
My belief is that 1) when we die our souls go instantly to hell or to be with the Lord. 2) our souls are immortal, and those who go to hell will endure eternal suffering. *
soldier2 31.10.09 - 11:20am
Ok.Well Im back to my first question.How was Adam made? *
n1ck 31.10.09 - 01:30pm
''And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.'' - Genesis 2:7 *
soldier2 31.10.09 - 04:58pm
Right.So DIRT + BREATH OF LIFE = LIVING SOUL *
soldier2 31.10.09 - 04:59pm
So since we have established that,where does the immortal soul come in? *
n1ck 1.11.09 - 06:08am
Are you asking how we know that the living soul is immortal? *
soldier2 1.11.09 - 01:39pm
Yes.Im asking what biblical evidence is there to prove that we have an immortal soul? *
n1ck 1.11.09 - 01:56pm
Well what does that have to do with Genesis 2:7 or how man was created? *
soldier2 2.11.09 - 02:11pm
n1ck Genesis.2:7 is the foundation.It tells us how God made man.Dirt+Breath of Life=Living Soul.So when we die,the breath goes back to God and the body goes back to dirt.No soul lives on after that. *
soldier2 2.11.09 - 02:12pm
But anyway I would like a text that shows we have an immortal soul. *
n1ck 2.11.09 - 03:49pm
Well yes the body returns to dust but the soul lives on after we die.
The souls of the saved will live eternally with God.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. - John 3:16
The souls of the lost will also exist eternally but will endure an everlasting eternal torment.
Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. - Matthew 18:8
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: - Matthew 25:41
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. - Matthew 25:46
*
n1ck 3.11.09 - 04:47am
Also look at Revelation 14:10-11
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. - Revelation 14:10-11 *
n1ck 3.11.09 - 04:52am
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. - Revelation 20:10
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:15
From Revelation it is clear that the Lake of Fire is a place of eternal torment, and that is where those whose names are not written in the book of life are going. *
n1ck 3.11.09 - 05:28am
Scripture is quite clear on the fact that our souls will endure forever. The souls who go to hell may not be immortal in terms of living life, as those in heaven will be, but they will certainly be awake and fully aware of their torment, and they will suffer pain for ever. *
soldier2 3.11.09 - 02:25pm
n1ck we will have immortality but we will not get in the moment we die.Let me quote a passage of scripture. *
soldier2 3.11.09 - 02:43pm
1 Corinthians.15:51Behold,I show you a mystery;We shall not all sleep,but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment,in the twinkling of an eye,at the last trump:for the trumpet shall sound,and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption,and this mortal must put on IMMORTALITY. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,and this mortal shall have put on IMMORTALITY,then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,Death is swa11owed up in victory. *
soldier2 3.11.09 - 02:48pm
As this text says,the dead in Christ will only receive immortality at the second coming. *
n1ck 3.11.09 - 03:55pm
I know this passage of 1 Corinthians 15 - I have preached on it.
You must view everything in light of the whole scripture, soldier2.
Now before we move to quickly on to that, lets please discuss the scriptures I posted.
Now we are debating the following 2 points:
1) whether we stay in the grave in a state of unconsciousness until Judgement Day, and
2) whether or not our souls are immortal, and whether those who go to hell will be utterely destroyed and cease to be.
As for the first one, I am the first to admit that I am not 100 percent well studied on the subject so I am open to discussion on it. I happen to believe personally that our souls go straight to hell or heaven the instant that we die here on earth, based on some scriptures I know. But I think its a minor subject anyway, and what you believe here is of little consequence to your salvation in my humble opinion.
But really, the issue I want to focus on right now is the second point we are debating - which is whether the souls that don't go to heaven will be utterely destroyed and cease to be, or continue to exist for eternity under torment. *
soldier2 3.11.09 - 04:31pm
Ok.Lets deal with the second part first.Billy Graham used to preach that sinners will be tormented for eternity but then he changed that position.For scriptural evidence,God said that the fires of Sodom and Gommorah would burn for eternity.But we know that they are not still burning now.So all the text means is that the fires of hell will burn until everything that can be burned will be burned. *
soldier2 3.11.09 - 04:38pm
Also God would not be fair to let people burn for eternity for living a life of 50 yrs.The punishment will match the crime. *
n1ck 3.11.09 - 05:07pm
Sorry soldier2, I actually wasnt finished posting. My phone started going haywire again.
There is more to the Sodom story but more on that later.
Eternal punishment is fair, because of who sin is committed against. Sin is not committed against some ordinary mortal creature. It is committed against the eternal God. Therefor the punishment is eternal. Punishment is not for WHAT we have done, but for WHO it was committed against. *
soldier2 3.11.09 - 05:20pm
n1ck where are you getting these reasonings from? WHY did Billy Graham stop preaching about an eternal torment? *
soldier2 3.11.09 - 05:28pm
But Ill wait for you to finish. *
n1ck 4.11.09 - 03:35am
Well for starters I dont get my reasonings from a fellow fallible man, like Billy Graham. That is the Gospel, soldier2. And it comes from the Bible.
(soldier2 please go to my wap site, and in the links you will find a link to download a sermon by Paul Washer called the True Gospel Part 3. I recommend that sermon wholeheartedly) *
n1ck 4.11.09 - 04:27am
But getting back to the debate:
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. - Matthew 25:46
soldier2, what do you make of Jesus' words here? *
soldier2 4.11.09 - 12:04pm
Forever in the Bible can be literally translated until the end of the age or as long as he shall live. Examples of this:In the Old Testament a slave was to serve his master forever(Exodus.21:6).Hannah brought Samuel to the temple forever(1 Samuel.1:22).1 Samuel.1:28 clearly states as long as he lives he shall be lent to the lord So the wicked will be consumed and burned to ashes.They will not burn in hell forever. *
soldier2 4.11.09 - 12:11pm
There are many texts regarding the destruction of the wicked.I could give them to you if you want them. *
n1ck 4.11.09 - 04:53pm
But Matthew 25:46 says ''everlasting punishment''. What does ''everlasting'' mean? *
soldier2 4.11.09 - 10:29pm
In this text it means until the end of the age. I already gave you other examples.Jude 7 says Sodom and Gommorrah burned with an eternal fire.Are they still burning today? *
6j0 15.06.10 - 10:52pm
soldier2
Jude 7 is ur answer.
They who sinned IN Sodom and Gomorra, is NOW in eternal fire. Not the city.
*
6j0 15.06.10 - 11:13pm
Everlasting is olam in Heb.
means: 1.TIME OUT OF MIND
2. ETERNITY
3. EVERLASTING
4.ALWAYS
5.PERPETUAL
6. TIME WITHOUT END
OLAM IS TRANSLATE IN THE KJV:
1. Ancient
2. For ever
3.perpetual
4. Always
5. Of old
6. Everlasting
7. For ever and ever
8. At any time
9. Lasting
10. Never
11. Evermore
12. Alway
13. Evermore
14. Ever
15. Ever of old
16. The world
17. Long
18. Eternal *
6j0 15.06.10 - 11:49pm
It says,AL GO TO ONE PLACE:ALL ARE OF THE DUST,AND ALL TURN TO DUST AGAIN.There can be no argument against this,for both men and beasts were made of dust as far as the BODY is cornc.Gen.2:7,19.But nothing is said here or ANY OTHER place that the SOULS and SPIRITS r made of dust.There for,THE SPIRIT OF MAN GOETH UPWARDredeemed AND THE SPIRIT OF BEAST GOETH DOWNWARDS TO THE EARTH. *
soldier2 16.06.10 - 12:02pm
6j0 are we immortal?
*
6j0 16.06.10 - 02:37pm
The Bible say the BODY only sleep. *
soldier2 17.06.10 - 10:52am
Are we immortal? Yes or
No *
6j0 17.06.10 - 07:28pm
What will you say soldier? *
soldier2 17.06.10 - 10:10pm
I'm asking you the question. *
6j0 18.06.10 - 03:56am
Do u thnk we are immortal soldier? Yes or no. *
soldier2 18.06.10 - 11:13am
Never mind.Its useless. *
soldier2 18.06.10 - 07:31pm
You should take a look at the group name.
*
